Episode 6: One More Case

The decades-old murder of seasonal resident Barbara Bushnell, an ice cream server at Dumser’s Dairyland on the Ocean City boardwalk, pulls the investigation in an unsettling new direction. As forgotten witness accounts, forensic questions, and conversations with retired Ocean City detective Brett Case begin resurfacing old uncertainties, the case reveals how much may still remain unresolved surrounding one of the area’s most haunting unsolved murders 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Throughout this multi-year investigation, just as I thought things were winding down, there would be that one thing that would pull me back in. One more nugget, one more conversation, one more case today on the beach remains. I'm Ricky Conlin. What is the impact of one man's thumb on the scales of justice? In the last episode, through my relationship with retired Maryland Supreme Court judge Dale Cathell, we became acquainted with former state's attorney Jack Sanford and his dominant influence of Ocean City's legal system in the late 1960s and most of the 70s. We were introduced to Leroy Tyler, a convicted felon under the custody of Jack Sanford, as his live-in gardener for multiple decades. We also learned of both Leroy and Jack's suspected involvement in the 1969 Cold Case Homicide of Ocean City local Rosemary Moon McIntyre, as written in Dale Cathell's book, Waiting in the Swamp, and derived by multiple interviews with the retired judge. Finally, we heard about the 1977 and 78 collision course between Jack Sanford and eight-term Ocean City Mayor Harry Kelly with all the sore details of exposed boxes of hidden evidence.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

And that they were not that it were stopped investigating. And the state police, this is my view now, had already determined that Leroy Tyler had killed her. And they were upset that the prosecutor was doing whatever he was doing, stopped the case. And that's when I started getting anonymous calls.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

Then there was the court shenanigans.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

There was a relative I had that worked for Sanford in Sanford's office. And at one time, right after I got the threat from this lawyer that Elizabeth had put up $5,000. This relative of mine in Sanford's office called me up and asked me to be careful. That's when I started carrying a gun.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

With all the plausible connection to our ongoing investigation, I wasn't finished looking into Jack Sanford and Leroy Tyler. Not by a long shot. Aside from all I learned from Dale's book, Wading Through the Swamp, and my sit-down interviews with him, I also had some excellent newspaper reporting at my disposal. Both the local Ocean City papers and the Baltimore Sun wrote multiple articles throughout 1977 and 78 that gave me a front row seat to the circus. One article in particular stuck out. It was the Baltimore Sun article that broke in mid-77, just as the feud over local police officer Victor Bunning's lawsuit of Leroy Tyler was becoming public. The Sun focused an article highlighting the frequent legal pardons doled out at the behest of then-state's attorney Jack Sanford. I asked Dale about the Baltimore Sun article and the alleged 88 pardons of Jack Sanford. Here's what he had to say.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Number one, I didn't know that there were that many.

SPEAKER_05 4:49

Without more data and better context, it is difficult to gauge how genuinely good or bad 88 pardons are.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

But as Dale puts it, reputations are his office when it was under the control of the actual enjoy a reputation as being rigorously communication.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

So, what is the actual effect of not being rigorous? And how would you even begin to measure it? I thought about that question and about this investigation. All those potential cold cases stretching across time. That's how I came upon the Project Cold Case Organization. It's a national nonprofit dedicated to victims of unsolved homicides and their families. Among its many services, one stood out. It's a publicly available cold case database. The Cold Case Database is a free tool that tracks and analyzes national cold case statistics spanning more than 60 years. Its data comes from national and local sources. But what makes it powerful is how it lets users compare homicide frequency and solve rates nationally and regionally. It's that regional view that grabbed my attention. What does the historical cold case record look like for Ocean City? And for broader Worcester County as a whole? Specifically, what did it look like during Jack Sanford's tenure as state's attorney from 1968 to 1978? The decade we focused in the last episode? Well, you're about to find out. Over the full 60-year window, the Project Cold Case database lists a 66% national homicide solve rate. When you narrow it from 2000 to present-day 2026, that rate drops to 60%. Compared to that, Worcester County looks strong with a historical homicide solve rate of 85%. But that comparison is misleading. National populations are far denser than Maryland's eastern shore. Rural areas often show higher solve rates simply because they have fewer people and fewer documented crimes. Ocean City also skews the numbers as a tourist town. Many missing person cases end up reporting in the victim's home jurisdiction instead. When you compare Worcester County's homicide record against itself across eras, that's when things get interesting. Before 1968, the database shows a perfect 10 for 10 100% solve rate. But during Jack Sanford's decade as prosecutor, that drops to 20 out of 27 or 75%. That's also the first time in county history we see any documented unsolved homicides. Seven in total. This is the same time frame the Baltimore Sun questioned in 1977, calling out Sanford's habit of dropping cases. Looking deeper, Worcester County has 20 total cold cases in the database. Seven of them, 35%, of all unsolved murders ever recorded there, came during Jack Sanford's final stint as state's attorney. Put simply, during Sanford's last years, homicide rates tripled, and unsolved cases more than doubled compared to every other era in Worcester County history. While most of my conversations with Dale Cathell focused on Sanford's final years, I asked if there were other cases from that era worth examining. That's when I first heard the name Barbara Bushnell. Saturday, September 19th, 1981, late in the tour season. Back then, Ocean City was far less of a year-round town. By mid-September of that year, most visitors and renters had already headed home. 19-year-old Barbara Ann Bushnell from Bethesda, Maryland, was wrapping up a summer in a rental on 17th Street, Bayside. Three blocks from the ocean, a mile and a half from the boardwalk, where she worked at Dumpsters Dairyland as an ice cream server. That weekend was the annual Sun Festival, the summer's last hurrah. Barbara had just finished her shift at Dumpsters. It was evening, already dark. She drove home, but never made it inside. Witnesses saw her car back at its usual parking spot by 9:30 p.m. It wasn't unusual to stay out late on a Saturday night, so her roommates didn't think much of her absence. Her car was right outside. But the next day, just as dumpsters noticed Barbara missing for her afternoon shift, a pedestrian walking a mile and a half north of her rental saw something horrifying. A young woman's body, later identified as Barbara Bushnell, lying in a pool of blood in the backseat of her own car. She had been violently assaulted and killed with a knife slash. The community was stunned. Barbara was described as the all-American girl. Smart, independent, beautiful, and streetwise. Not the kind to be taking chances or to get fooled by strangers. Nothing about the scene made any sense. Her car was parked normally, just a block and a half off Ocean Highway, beside a small canal. By that point in the season, most of the collages renters had gone home. That far north, that late at night, Ocean City, Maryland was desolate. That's why Barbara's body wasn't found until nearly a full day later. The town of Ocean City rallied. Donald Timmins, owners of Dunster's Dairyland, organized local business owners to raise $17,000 in reward money, a huge sum for 1981. No one had seen Barbara get in her car after work. Her death was immediately ruled a sexual assault and homicide. And a massive investigation followed, led by the still young Ocean City Police Department, a then newly formed counterpart to county law enforcement. Witnesses trickled in. Composite sketches ran in newspapers. The public response was overwhelming. The community wanted justice. The police wanted answers. And the last thing Ocean City, Maryland wanted was the image of danger or a killer on the loose. Despite this urgency, the case went cold. A few suspects surfaced over the years, but for more than 40 years later, Robert Bushnell's murder remains unsolved. Early in my investigation, I asked my cousin, retired Delaware police detective Brian Conlin, if he knew any officers who served in the Ocean City, Maryland Police Department during the 1980s. That's how I met a retired Ocean City police detective in Brett Case.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Um I started my career as a summer police officer in 1988. I was hired at the end of that summer as a full-time police officer. And um I worked as a patrolman for nine years and then was um elevated to detective. And I worked in the major crimes division of the police department's CID criminal investigation division for the next 21 years. I've retired after 28.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

Brett's certainly no stranger to policing in Ocean City with nearly three decades of experience under his belt. From starting as a patrolman to working his way up to detective, he's been involved in many cases over the years. But one homicide case, perhaps Ocean City, Maryland's most famous, is the one Brett was most notably associated with in his career.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

I was uh a detective in 2002, and it was uh it was uh uh Memorial Day weekend, and we had two missing persons, and it turned out that they were murdered by another couple that was later arrested. Uh, and I was the the on-call detective at the time, so I was one of the first two detectives that was assigned to the case, so and was with it through the end.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Memorial Day weekend, May 2002. A young married couple, BJ and Erica Seafrit, were vacationing in Ocean City, Maryland. Saturday night at Secrets Night Club, they met another couple, Joshua Ford and Martha Crutchley. The Seafritz invited them back to their rental and murdered them. Afterwards, they dismembered the bodies and dumped them in a Delaware dumpster just miles north. Then continued their ocean city vacation as if nothing happened. It was later discovered the Seafritz had tried a similar attack on another couple later in that same week. This time, the victims escaped. Finally, as they prepared to leave town, the Seafritz tried to rob a West Ocean City Hooters gift shop. But they were caught when the silent alarm went off. During their arrest, police searched Erica Seifert's purse and found spent ammunition and the driver's licenses of Joshua Ford and Martha Crutchley, who by then had both already been reported as missing. Detective Brett Case and his team connected that evidence to the broader investigation, and BJ and Erica Seafrit spent decades behind bars. The Seifert case remains one of the most infamous in Ocean City history. The media compared the couple to Bonnie and Clyde and to the characters from Natural Born Killers, propelling the story to national headlines. For the Ocean City Police Department, it was a major win. A nationally visible double homicide solved in weeks' time. But when I asked Detective Brett Case about the Barbara Bushnell murder of 1981, he said that this was the case everyone in the department talked about throughout the entirety of his career.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

When I came into CID, uh was elevated to be a detective, which was a dream of mine. Um I had heard about this Bushnell case because there's two huge boxes, bankers' boxes, in the uh in the CID offices, back in the old station and the new station. And anyone that comes into the unit, the first thing they do is tell you, familiarize yourself with this police report. It's two boxes full of police reports. It's a case that was quote unquote closed through an indictment of a dead man, and no one believed that that was the that was the suspect that actually committed it. So they they felt like it was a cold case, but it wasn't actually open at the time. But everyone that came to the unit reviewed that case, made yourself familiar, and everyone came away with it with a little bit of knowledge of crime work, crime investigations, and uh an opinion.

SPEAKER_05 17:42

Even though Brett wasn't even a fledgling patrolman in 1981, he was scrubbed into the Barbara Bushnell case early in his career and remains to this day extremely invested. In fact, multiple Ocean City Police Department officers that I spoke with over the course of this investigation conveyed similar sentiments. I spoke to Brett extensively about Barbara Bushnell and what he could recall from the case file and Ocean City Police Department's decades of follow-up on it. I started with the timeline and what exactly was known and unknown about Barbara Bushnell's final hours. Alright, so Barbara Bushnell uh got off of work at Dumpsters Dairy Land 7:30-ish, and then loaded into her car on Wakomaco Street, roughly between the Cork and the bearded clam. That was where her car was suspected or known to be parked when she got off of work.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah, we we I guess everyone believes it through witness information that that's where she parked and she would normally travel home the same direction, and you know, her car was found in front of her apartment where she normally would park. So nothing out of the ordinary from what she would normally do.

SPEAKER_05 19:10

And based off of conversations you had with witnesses and whatnot, did she ever walk that route or it was always drive back from work at night?

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Oh, definitely drive. She drove, you know, everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 19:22

And what would be I know some of the witnesses saw like altering or perhaps a different path of the car, but based off of her normal route back, how would she typically drive, to the best of your knowledge, back from work to her residence on 17th Street?

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah, the to the best of our knowledge, what what what we understood was that she would avoid traffic and go up St. Louis Avenue. How she got to St. Louis Avenue, I mean, she could have there a number of ways, but you would travel some portion of uh of South Baltimore Avenue, and then we would go west across to St. Louis and north. We believe she went under the bridge, which would mean she would have gotten on St. Louis Avenue somewhere between uh, you know, I guess it would be Somerset Street and and up north, and then she would take that road all the way home. So it's it's a straight shot from there. No, no lights, no, no other traffic.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

And nobody saw her travel under the bridge uh in getting back on St. Louis. That was just the typical route that she might have taken.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Yeah, I don't think we have witnesses to say that, no. Yeah, that's just the way she normally would go. Or at least that's what her friends would say.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

Barbara uh had roommates as well in that 17th uh street residence, and uh it sounded like you had a chance to interview them. I know it was a long, long time ago. Do you remember, like what do you remember those conversations? What do you remember them saying, if anything?

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Um I don't remember that me talking to any of them because that happened after me and uh uh initially in the 81 when it happened. Um but reading their they wrote written witness witness statements, written witness statements. That there was nothing un unusual, nothing that stood out. They didn't, you know, they described how she came and went to work, and uh, you know, her all summer was sort of the same routine, um, depending on the date and time. And I I you know anything that was unusual is I don't think she was supposed to work as late that night as she was as she did. Um and um and then her not going to work the next day was an unusual, an unusual thing. Yeah. So those two things were the only real outliers. Um, you know, there was no guy was, you know, boy ex-boyfriend or guy was tracking her down or she was creeped out by somebody. None of those things ever came up. And I don't know if they were directly asked or not, but it certainly didn't come up.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

Based on what I heard from Brett, Saturday, September 19th, was supposed to be a normal night. Barbara worked a little later than normal at But was in her car and on her way home well before 8 p.m. There was also a witness that alleged he saw Barbara's car pull into one of her normal spots adjacent to her rental complex.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

This gentleman was um in an apartment complex right next to where the car was, and he was in his room, which was at the top of the uh uh uh you know an attic space area uh with a window, small window, that would overlook where the vehicle was. He said he heard the vehicle pull in, heard a door slam, and then he looked through the window and saw the car shaking violently and then stopped shaking, and then he went back to doing whatever he was doing.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

What what time was this? Approximately like 11, 11:30 that night?

SPEAKER_03 22:49

I believe it was closer to 9.30 or 10.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

There were also multiple additional details Brett was able to recall about Barbara's parked car.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Well, the manner in which she parked the car, it was sort of on a 45-degree angle, normal, uh, within with in between the lines, if you will, um, where she normally would park generally at that time of night. And um, you know, it's a pretty well well-lit area, if you will. It's not like dark, dark, but um, you know, it didn't look like it was, you know, hurried in like someone was trying to leave the leave the body there. Uh it looked like maybe she parked it herself and then something happened. It's a logical explanation, but Occam's razor again, so it's hard to tell.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

But it sounds like the assault happened in the back seat, so she would have to have been drugged to the backseat.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yeah, I guess she was assaulted in the front seat, and then you know she they you know, she was forced into the backseat. I don't know, by knife point, because she was you a knife was used to kill her, or uh a sharp instrument, or was it you know ordered to do it, or was there more than one suspect? I mean, all those things are possible. But she wound up in the backseat, and I assume she was driving based on the where the seat was placed, based on the mirrors, none of that was altered or yeah. Makes you think either the person was the same size as her or she was driving and then moved from the front seat to the back seat. Yeah. Whether she was forced there or uh forced there physically or forced there by command.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

It's worth noting that Barbara Bushnell's car was a two-door Mazda hatchback, which would be considered a compact car by today's standards. Then there was the evidence collected in and around Barbara Bushnell's car.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

A dive team located the knife at the end in the canal at the end of the street, 25 yards from where her car was found, and she was in the car. Um and the knife was um, I don't know, nine inches long total, uh, wooden handle, um, serrated edge. Um we took a look at that knife, and knowing that uh one of the suspects worked at Phillips Crab House, we asked if this knife was something they had used or would have come from the restaurant, and it was described as being very similar to or exactly like knives they used in that kitchen um at that time frame, um, which they called, I believe, salad prep knives. And it was, you know, you couldn't say for sure, but that was certainly the site style and type of that knife found.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

Have they ever tried to extract DNA evidence off of that knife or do anything with it?

SPEAKER_03 25:49

We did. Our our evidence people in 2007, 8, 9, somewhere around there, um she had it taken apart um and uh they tried to extract DNA and was unsuccessful.

SPEAKER_05 26:02

So they didn't get a readoff of it?

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Okay. No, nothing positive or negative. You know, they didn't have it.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

Nothing they could draw DNA out of it.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Um course it was in it was in the canal for I don't know how long before, yeah. Well, it was several days before we found it.

SPEAKER_05 26:22

Could you talk a little bit about the uh around the car? It looked like there were, you'd mentioned beer bottles were found around the car.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Yeah, there's two empty. I guess they were 12 ounce, maybe 16-ounce um Budweiser beer bottles, the old style with the twist-off cap, um, and they were both laying on the passenger side fairly close to the rear wheel. One was under the rear wheel, on the between the front and rear wheel, but closer to the rear wheel, and the other one was just aside that, um, out in the out in the open.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

And was any attempt made on getting DNA from those bottles?

SPEAKER_03 26:57

Many attempts, yeah, and nothing was successful.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

Inside Barbara's hatchback, a hooded sweatshirt found on the floor of the passenger seat offered the most promising clues. And last bit of evidence that I'm gonna ask about at the scene was the um the sweatshirt. There was uh could you describe the the sweatshirt, the size of it, and what was done with it?

SPEAKER_03 27:24

My recollection is it was a it was like a zip-up hoodie, and it was um uh light blue aqua color, and it was size larger, extra large. It was bigger than the sweatshirt that that uh that the victim would have been wearing.

SPEAKER_05 27:42

Also found on this hooded sweatshirt was at least one strand of afro-textured hair. On the sweatshirt, do you think they still have that hair and could that provide DNA testing?

SPEAKER_03 27:57

I I'm pretty sure they have the hair, but I don't think they could get extract anything from it. I don't I don't remember why.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

All the attention, all the local interest, the witness testimonies, and physical evidence collected, the case has won in several different directions, never able to land a final conviction or even a final story explaining the horrible tragedy that befell upon the Bushnell family in September of 1981. And it sounds like there's been a history of multiple suspects being pinned uh and disqualified kind of iteratively. Um it sounds like there was uh uh uh a man of Puerto Rican descent, uh, or at least uh kind of fit one of the perpetrators' descriptions and uh that had a violent history of assault in Baltimore, and he was pursued. I think that there was even a pinning of the sweatshirt by his daughter, no DNA linking, but uh uh basically next of kin saying that that was potentially his s that it was his sweatshirt. And then long story short, um he was disqualified uh in the investigation and now is no longer a suspect, and they've rotated through uh a few other suspects on top of it, but it it seems like the the perpetrator uh that it's pointed to a couple of different people, but but nothing that's ever gained final traction.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Yeah, he was indicted by uh the the uh state's attorney back in 81 or 82. His body, he was killed in a landlord dispute in New York City. Um we had investigators go up and talk to investigators up there. His body was buried in Puerto Rico and he was exhumed. Uh our state's attorney went and looked at the body. I don't know if there was evidence taken from it or or what, but they indicted him for this this crime, and we don't think, you know, it was very superficial. Don't think that that would have been enough to convict him, but that's that's how the case was closed. We were able to reopen it, it then again got closed, and now it's again reopened, and I'm not there anymore, so I really don't know.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

When I reflect on the Barbara Bushnell case, there is much to digest. Here's what jumps out to me. First and foremost is the gap between approximately 38 p.m. after Barbara's closing work shift at Dumpsters and the hour and a half later when a witness heard her car park outside the rental units on 17th Street. Where did Barbara drive in that time? And who, if anyone, was with her in the car? And if Barbara was carrying a single or multiple passengers, when and under what circumstances did they enter in the first place? There was a witness that did come forward a few months after the homicide, having heard about the case after the fact in the Baltimore and DC news outlets. It sounded like there was uh a witness that you guys found due to uh it sounded like it might have even been a parking ticket that placed the witness's car within the area. Uh, or there was a witness that had said she had supposedly seen uh Barbara in the car with two other gentlemen heading actually over and westbound on the Ocean City Drawbridge at 50.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Yeah, a number of, I want to say months, it might even be years later, there was a woman come forward that said she saw uh and described what she saw was Barbara and um a Hispanic or African American male and a white male in the barber's car, going left at First Street, and then on and over and heading south on on Baltimore or uh Philadelphia Avenue and over the bridge, and that the person in the back seat, and I don't remember which it was the white or the Hispanic that might have had a broken bottle in his hand. That woman we didn't really think was credible, but it her information was in there, and so we know it was part of the case. And yeah, it was it was certainly something we didn't discount. It was coming after the fact, uh a period of time after the fact, and I don't know if it was you know the ne the next spring or it wasn't you know contemporaneous to the actual crime.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

And while there were varying impressions on the witness's relevancy and credibility given the delay of her testimony, there are other witness accounts that make this testimony in question sound even more believable. Bolstering the two passenger assailant testimony is an assault that happened a week before Barbara Bushnell's. A Baltimore woman had visited Ocean City Labor Day weekend, 1981, at the Carousel Hotel on the north side of town. She was harassed by a duo of men, one black, one white, who screamed derogatory terms at her while she was loading into her car. She returned the favor. The next weekend, the same woman returned to Ocean City. This time, she parked her car on North Division Street, just a few blocks from Bushnell's place of employment at Dumpsters Dairyland. This woman is then allegedly accosted by the same black man she had seen the weekend before, this time grabbing her by the arm and referencing the altercation at the Carousel Hotel. The altercation, as you would expect, freaked her out, and she moved her car to the inlet parking lot, about eight blocks away. She spent the rest of her day sunbathing and swimming on the beach. When she returned to her car at the end of the day, the same black man she had an altercation with on the boardwalk was waiting by her car with a bearded white man. The duo attacked the woman, threw her in the back seat, and drove around in the victim's car before eventually raping her and abandoning her, passed out in the back of her own car. This all happened less than a week before the Barbara Bushnell incident. The victim's description of the black assailant, including facial acne and braided hair, matched witness reports of a woman who independently derived her own sketch describing a man she had seen driving with Barbara Bushnell and a third passenger, an adult white male, on the evening of her homicide. All of these details are documented in multiple 1982 local news reports. And then um, I asked this before, I think I know the answer, but uh Leroy Tyler and Jack Sanford, were they ever mentioned in this case?

SPEAKER_03 35:30

I I never saw their names, and I contacted quite a few of the older detectives that were involved in the case when it was fresh, and they don't recall the name either, so I don't know if that was they don't recall or it just wasn't part of the case.

SPEAKER_05 35:44

But by 1981, Leroy Tyler was a known felon who just a few years earlier was drugged into a very public outing of his violent past. And then there was Barbara Bushnell's return route from dumpsters to her 17th Street home, which would have, at worst, passed a block and a half, and perhaps passed directly in front of Jack Sanford's home on 6th Street, where Leroy Tyler lived full-time above the garage. Then there was the knife described found in evidence of the Barbara Bushnell case. It shared characteristics with the knife purportedly found in the water near Rosemary Moon McIntyre's body in 1969. Taken all together, Barbara's route home, the previous carousel hotel and North Division Street attacks, the suspect sketches, the purported duo from the weeks before. It starts to look less like random chaos and more like a hunting ground. So where do we take it from here? Where have we been? What have we learned? What's our next move as season one of this investigation reaches its finale? Next time on The Beach Remains, I'm Ricky Conlin. The Beach Remains podcast is produced by DreamOak Productions, All Rights Reserved, the song Gods and Ghosts performed by Koydog. Follow us on the Beach Remains Facebook page for show updates and fan community. A five-year investigative journey. It's been a wild ride.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

It was family-oriented neighborhood.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

What we're seeing there is almost about five feet aside.

SPEAKER_05 38:15

Was that current or something?

SPEAKER_04 38:17

Current or something. How would you describe the scene here?

SPEAKER_06 38:20

Just vibe.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

It could be a good 15-20 minutes away.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

And anyone that comes into the unit, the first thing they do is tell you, familiarize yourself with this police.

SPEAKER_05 38:39

Judge Dale Caffel. Retired retired Judge Dale Caffle.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

That type of police response, it's something big, something going on.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

And they were upset that the prosecutor was doing whatever he was doing to stop the case. And that's when they I started getting anonymous calls.

SPEAKER_05 38:55

And then um, I asked this before, I think I know the answer, but uh Leroy Tyler and Jack Sanford, were they ever mentioned in this case?

SPEAKER_02 39:07

That's when I started carrying a gun. It does look human to you.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Oh, it's absolutely human and no uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

But I didn't see a barrel and I didn't see wood, it was more of a suitcase.

SPEAKER_05 39:18

Where will it take us? Listen to the finale and find out.